Podcast - Episode 5: The "Death of the MLS"? Examining Evolving Listing Platforms

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Episode Transcript:

The "Death of the MLS"? Examining Evolving Listing Platforms

Lance Pendleton: On this episode of consumed. Do consumers actually care about Na? Is na really still going to be around? What's happening with the MLS? And I can guarantee you one thing. Lucy and I are probably not going to agree. This has consumed the podcast for real estate agents who are tired of hearing the same old industry stuff and want to experience something completely different. So today's conversation is going to be one of I think everyone's favorites is it's a definitive fan favorite of everyone out there about the MLS, its need, and whether or not the MLS itself or MLS, as we should say, are dying. And so, you know, again, because here on consumed, we're taking the consumer approach at things to think differently about how people engage with things. And let's be abundantly clear, even the term MLS, from a consumer perspective, they don't really care, nor do they fully understand what the MLS or MLS are. But I like to always think about the MLS as a strange, necessary evil. And particularly right now with all of the debate happening in and around clear cooperation. And I've got some, to no one's surprise, I've got some big feelings about this, but I'm going to first start with I'm really curious, Lucy, to know what your perspective on the MLS is just to start, because I always think that you and I have very different opinions on on particular items, but I don't think we're going to be that far off on this one. So I'm just curious. You tell me, what's your take on the MLS or MLS in general?

Lucy Edwards: Well, my take is I don't think it's disappearing, at least not in any foreseen future, though some large brokerages believe that they should die like tomorrow. I don't think it's happening. It's just it's impossible. However, MLS need to be more involved in changing how they used to be for the last. God knows how many years. Things are different, but I do believe that MLS, at least for today and again for near future, they have to exist. They absolutely. I can see you are disagreeing with me. They they have to exist because that is the platform that offers consumers the latest information. Actually, it's more accurate than any other platform can offer. Some of them are very outdated. It also helps understand the inventory. It helps put together the agent with their clients as buyers and sellers. So I believe that for now they absolutely have to change 180 degrees. But they but we need them because we don't have anything else to replace them with.

Lance Pendleton: But what does the MLS have to do with consumers? Consumers don't have access to the MLS, but.

Lucy Edwards: The agent, when they get the listing and they put the listing into the MLS, the information that is incorporated. It has to be correct. It has to be verified. It has to be trusted. So that that is very important because also it allows other agents to work between each other and they have access to MLS. So the consumer will get affected.

Lance Pendleton: So we're in agreement that it's just a database.

Lucy Edwards: It is just a database, but it is the correct database which is also important.

Lance Pendleton: Okay. So we're in agreement that it's a correct database and it is a database in essence to be used by agents and brokerages.

Lucy Edwards: Yes, correct. Okay.

Lance Pendleton: So if that's the case why do we have 960 of them.

Lucy Edwards: That is that that is a disaster. 100% agreed with you. Uh, new Jersey alone has, I think, like 40 plus, which is ridiculous. It's not that big. Uh, Florida, I, I lost count and and the negative part of it, which is also not good for the agent. Very often agents have to belong to different MLS. Like in Florida. You are Miami MLS plus Broward County MLS plus. If you work in Naples, you have to be part of Naples level MLS. And everywhere you go you have to pay and you pay. It's a lot of money. It's between like 500 and $800 per mls in new Jersey. You have to be part of Garden State, MLS and new Jersey, MLS plus the MLS of let's say Monmouth County. So that is absolutely ridiculous. And it's definitely does not it does not help the agent financially and confusion.

Lance Pendleton: 100% agree. And just to go one level deeper who dictates the rules that the MLS operate under.

Lucy Edwards: Well I would assume it's the National Association of Realtors.

Lance Pendleton: Okay. So the National Association of Realtors oversees the rules that the MLS operates under. Who's on the board of most of the MLS?

Lucy Edwards: Well, usually brokers or top agents or agents.

Lance Pendleton: Okay. So we've got agents and brokers. Yeah. Who are on the boards of these MLS's and the MLS are then in partnership with Nar. Yeah. So you've got agents boards and MLS in partnership with Nar, right?

Lucy Edwards: Correct.

Lance Pendleton: So last time I checked, if you put all those things together and they're all making decisions inside this happy silo. Yeah. How is that not the definition of collusion?

Lucy Edwards: Not always right decisions. But I'm sorry to interrupt.

Lance Pendleton: No, but but how is that, then? Not the definition of collusion.

Lucy Edwards: Well, it it they in my opinion, if I were an agent and I would be on the board, I would think also about my own interests and the interests of my colleagues. So very often I do not understand what they are thinking about and how they make their decisions. I think they conflict with themselves in a way when when they create certain regulations and how they accept partners and and it's just absolutely ridiculous. It has to change and I started with my direction MLS. You cannot get rid of it right now, but changes are needed and like drastic changes for sure.

Lance Pendleton: And and we're all in agreement that changes are needed. But I want to go back one step because I think you missed what I just said.

Lucy Edwards: Okay. Sorry.

Lance Pendleton: If we're in an industry that is currently under attack for steering collusion, illegal practices, whether right or wrong, I'm not saying that that that lawsuits are right or wrong, but if that's the perception, what benefit does it do anybody to have a national association controlling a multiple listing service, which is really only there for data that is then being serviced by people on a board of directors who are the brokerages and agents that it then supports.

Lucy Edwards: And what I would say is that, well, first of all, National Association of Realtors has to change as well. I mean, they cannot stay the way they are. And uh, and MLS Smells have to be combined, so it will be easier to have all across the board regulations for different states with some maybe, you know, based on, on on something that is state related changes. But that's that's how I that's how I see it. I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, but I would cut the molasses. I would still have na but in a different in a different body. I would say, uh, but someone has to control the molasses. So na is is important to, to keep as well, but have the whole government much smaller. So let's just cut the government.

Lance Pendleton: Well I'll cut the government. I don't know how we got to cutting the government, but okay. So this is why I'm having this dialogue with you, because I think it's super interesting to think from different perspectives and different understanding, different ideas. But when you look at the consumer out there, and for most of the people that I talk to, one of the biggest questions that I often just I'll ask, it's a good cocktail party is, you know, what do you think of Nar, the National Association of Realtors, and they're like.

Lucy Edwards: Most people don't even know what it is.

Lance Pendleton: I don't even know what that is. And I'm like, well, does it does it matter to you that you are using a realtor or a real estate agent? Is it important to you to be using a realtor or real estate agent? They're like, what the hell are you talking about? Lance? It's the same thing. And I'm like, well, no. According to Nar, it's not. So here's where this all comes in. So is it is the is this the death of the MLS? No. Only if the MLS can separate themselves from Nar and operate as if they were nothing more than basically databases, giant databases of information where policies aren't being set based off of arbitrary things. And what we really need more than anything else is a national database. The fact that we don't have a national database and the closest thing to a national database are aggregators like Zillow or Redfin or any of these other brokerages that are pulling the data from all these different MLS anyway, is insane. Now. Why don't we have a national database? Well, because all of these MLS want to protect their fiefdoms because that's how they make money. Why would anybody want to simplify a process? Because in the end, Lucy, this is the problem with all of the real estate on the whole. The biggest problem with real estate on the whole is that each area of real estate, there's like 50 people, as we all know, involved in any real estate transaction. You've got the agents, you've got the brokerage, you've got the inspectors, you've got the mortgage people, you've got title, you've got escrow stuff going.

Lance Pendleton: You've got all kinds of people involved. And every facet of each one of those areas wants to keep their part as complicated as possible. They don't want to simplify it, because if they simplify it, you don't need them anymore. So in turn, this is the biggest problem that we're facing. Because why you have these governing bodies that are making arbitrary decisions that aren't really in the best interest of consumers always. And at the same time, you then have each one of these different divisions and departments in all of these things, trying to keep their areas as complex as possible, and none of it actually serves the consumer in the end. So let's let's give an example. What if there was a centralized database that operated off of an auction house model where me as an agent, I have the consumer's listing. It goes on this centralized database. It goes into an auction format. People can then go place their bids on that. You can see live bidding on what people are offering. You can see those dollar amounts go up or down. You can then see and the home seller at the end of call it 30 days can either choose to accept whatever bid they see there, or they can reject the bids and take the market off the property. I mean, property off the market. Like what? What would be wrong about having fair, clear, open opportunity under that and have that auction style so that we were actually addressing fair. Market opportunities for properties.

Lucy Edwards: Well, I agree with you with everything. However, also you have to think about, at least in my in my opinion, we have to think about different regulations. We also have to make sure that there is a fair housing that, uh, MLS has to make sure that photos, for example, the images are not taken from one agent to another without the permission, that if it's a virtual staging, you have to have some kind of disclosure. Things like that have to be protected by somebody. So I see that MLS owner or whoever is going to be, even if it will be one mls for the whole United States, but you still need to have that in place to make sure that everyone follows the rules. And you know more than anyone else that agents can break the rules. And then and then there is another lawsuit, and then there is a scandal, and on and on and on. So you have to have you have to have something in place that would control those agents.

Lance Pendleton: Right? So if we had a centralized national MLS that had an auction house format to it and that again, you had independent board members, it was a nonprofit organization. Let's just call it for argument's sake. And what if the information being supplied to that national MLS by the brokerages, right. Because you have agents that are the ones that are getting listings, and those listings are then being fed to this national MLS. What if that was monetized back to the brokerage? What if it was where you actually had an additional revenue stream as a brokerage for supplying information into this national group? Why would that be bad?

Lucy Edwards: But then you are counting on a brokerage to follow all the rules, and you know that they can also break the rules.

Lance Pendleton: Well, no, no, no. But how are they breaking the rules?

Lucy Edwards: No they can. I'm not saying that they are. And not all brokerages are like that. But some brokerages will just close their eyes on their regions doing something not right. So that's why you do have MLS. It's like, you know, I wouldn't call them police, but they are babysitting in a way, all the agents and the brokerages to make sure that everything is according to the rules and so.

Lance Pendleton: Under under what you just said, though, you're saying it's not a database of information, it's a policing system.

Lucy Edwards: In addition to database. But it is probably just like I said, what if the one agent took someone else's photos? Mls is keeping track of that and different. What if the.

Lance Pendleton: Photos were the property of the homeowner?

Lucy Edwards: No. So the photos are not the property of the homeowner, but why not? The photos are in different cases and you have to sign off on that. But the photos are the property of the company and the photographers who took the photos. But why have to sign off allowing the MLS to use the photos or to sell the photos? And not every company agrees to that.

Lance Pendleton: So I'm a homeowner. I have my own home. I there's a photographer that shows up, they take pictures of my home. Why don't I own the rights to that photography?

Lucy Edwards: That is a completely separate conversation. But no, the home owner does not own the photos unless the homeowner took their own photos or paid for their own photographer there. But if the agent provided the photographers the service, the homeowner does not own the photos. And if, let's say the the agent, um, lost the listing. The homeowner, even if they did download those photos, they're not allowed to use them. The new agent has to provide new photography. Right.

Lance Pendleton: And so again, just think about what you just explained. You said it's a whole different topic, but it's not. These are arbitrary rules that are made by a multiple listing association. Right. So they're not only doing database function, they're also policing certain things. And when you have 960 of them. Again, there is nothing that benefits the consumer. So my view of it is, let's be real straightforward one. Here's a great point of differentiation. If I went to my clients and said, look, one of the things that separates me from the other agents is that when I take photos of your home, I give you those photos. You're going to sign off on the waiver that says that you own the rights to that photography, and those are your photos. Then afterwards, you can do with them what you like. Would that not be a great point of differentiation between me and anybody else?

Lucy Edwards: Well, um, our company does not allow that. So we would not allow agent to give the rights of the, of the images to the seller.

Lance Pendleton: But why not?

Lucy Edwards: That's that is our policy. And there are a lot of companies feel the same way, like maybe small individual photographers. They would do that. Um, but but even they don't do it lately. That's why MLS now has different agreements with a company like ours and with individual photographers, where they ask to use the photos on MLS to give them to Zillow to change them. But they still cannot sell them to anybody else. So the agent loses the listing. The photos will not be transferred to the new agent.

Lance Pendleton: But do you see how my point being is? How is any of this consumer friendly or consumer centric.

Lucy Edwards: That that has nothing to do? It is not consumer friendly in a way. Because if the if the agent loses the listing in the middle of winter and they have beautiful summer photos, and now you have new agent with bad weather with no drone because it looks awful and all you have is dirty snow in February. Yeah, consumer is definitely not benefiting from it.

Lance Pendleton: Well, the consumer is not benefiting at all because again, we're taking my physical property that I'm asking you to put out and you now own the photography rights. So I don't want to harp on this, but I'm just using it as a point, right? To illustrate that the entire structural system isn't set up to benefit consumers. It's just not. It benefits each piece of the fiefdom and all the people that feed off of it. Right. And that's what happens at the end of the day, because, again, it is a giant trough of financial opportunity for dozens and dozens of people, none of which really are in the consumer's best interest. And the most fascinating thing to me about what we're dealing with now is I, you know, agents tell me all the time, you know, oh, that that the lawsuit that just happened, it's all bogus, it's all BS. It's all this, that and the other. You know, I've never done any steering. I've never done any steering. I don't do that. I'll say great. Well, then tell me how you explain compensation. And they'll say to me, well, you know, it's very simple. I tell people you can make whatever choice you want, but my fee is 6%. And I'm like, that's steering right there, straight up. The minute you combine those two numbers together, guess what? You are in turn steering. That is why they lost. That's why it took a jury 15 minutes to find them all guilty. Because at the end of the day, again, it's not the fault of the agent.

Lance Pendleton: It is the fault of Nar and the brokerages, who have done nothing to help educate agents on how to best serve consumers. And so what what you see in this is where is the opportunity lie for us? So is are the MLS is going away? Probably not. Do we really need to have a big change? Yes. Is this fight over clear cooperation? Pure insanity? Absolutely it is. And I will tell you straight up, just clear cooperation need to be reformed. Yes, 1,000%. Does it need to be eliminated? Hell no. Absolutely not. Because at that point in time, agents need to be very careful what you wish for here when you eliminate clear cooperation. What you are saying, in turn, is that the biggest brokerages can begin to hoard listings. And when the biggest brokerages begin to hoard listings, because that's the goal. That's what they want. Yeah. You now have them controlling pockets of information that is not available, and there's no consumer out there, by the way, that's going to tell you. Yeah. You know what? When I come to think about buying a home, I would love to go to a dozen different websites to see what's available. That's that's really what I'd like. You know, I want to go and spend time looking at sometimes the properties the same on all of them. Sometimes it's different. I want to spend, you know, half an hour, 45 minutes surfing through dozens of different websites.

Lance Pendleton: Oh, and I have to create a username and password for each of those different websites in an account. Oh, my email is going to get blasted and spammed by all the agents in that then great. That's that's a real great user experience, right? Big brokerages want to collect all of that data so that you have to go through them in order to get it. Well that's great. If you're an agent right now and you're listening to us, here's what I'm going to tell you. There's clear cooperation. Need to be reformed. Yes. But if you eliminate it completely and allow large brokerages to continue to hoard all this information and data, if you're an agent at that brokerage, that's great in theory, but what they're looking to do is continue to incentivize inside deals. That's how they drive their bottom line up. It's very simple math. And when they incentivize their inside deals again within the same brokerage, the profit goes toward them. But then the next step comes into play where they get to then drive your compensation down. Why? Because if you're looking at saying, hey, I'm making more money because we do more inside deals than anybody else, but you're at an 8020 split. Watch how fast that becomes 70, 30 or 60 over 40, right? Because at the end of the day, they need to change that profit model and margin because there's no actual profitable long term gain in brokerage.

Lucy Edwards: But then in addition to that, I would say, Lance, it is so difficult to sell the property because it is only available on my. Lucie Edwards site and that's it. So that means that I have less buyers. I have less agents I can network with. On on purchasing on selling my my my listing to someone else across the country. So I totally agree with you that. And that's why I think it will never happen. But here's.

Lance Pendleton: The thing. Keep in mind you're talking about two different pieces, which is really important. What you just said is yes, it's not in the consumer's best interest for visibility. But remember, if you eliminate clear cooperation, that does not stop you. Lucie, from marketing that private listing anywhere you want. You can market that anywhere you want. There's no regulation anymore for that.

Lucy Edwards: You can market it any way you want, but it's not as visible as if it is right now. If I put my house on the market right now and it's on every single site, on Realtor.com, on Zillow, and on on Homes.com and everything you can possibly think of. I have more visibility to sell my property than someone has to go in. And to Lucy Edwards Real Estate and and just like you said, you have to log in. You have to create the password. You have to share your information. It's just time consuming. And then someone will have access just to me and that's it. So that that is not going to work and I do not see it working. And as a matter of fact, right now some companies already exist who are offering that service and they are not sharing their listings with other, uh, with everyone else. They all pocket listings and it's working, but it can only work in a small market.

Lance Pendleton: Well, and and at the end of the day, you know, let's talk about really briefly what the, the healthiest solution is moving forward. Because again, from what consumers want education to consumers is to help them understand two separate things. So here's here's something that I tell a lot of my a lot of my clients. The first thing that we need to do as, as a group, as, as real estate agents, is begin to separate ourselves from Nar. Because what's happened now in the media, and when you look at all of the negative press that happened in and around that, what I want to do is make sure that somebody understands. I'm not Nar. I don't have anything to do with that group. I don't, simply because of the fact that I am and again, in my humble opinion, legally obligated to pay them dues, to be able to do my job because I happen to live in a state where in order for me to actually have access to the MLS, I have to pay my fiefdom to Nar. I don't have anything to do with them though, based on what they're doing, nor do I agree with most of what they're doing. So problem number one, and the thing that we need to do is get away. So here's how I explain it. So here's a tip for agents ready. When someone says, oh, how are you doing with all of the lawsuits and everything? The first thing I say to them is great. I didn't get sued. The first thing that I point out, they got sued. I didn't get sued. And the second thing I explained to them is, well, let me give you an idea of like kind of how it works.

Lance Pendleton: If the National Association of Dentistry got sued for crappy practices, would you stop going to your dentist? No. Now, if your dentist got sued for bad practices or malpractice, yeah, you're going to go find a new dentist. But I'm not them. What I do and how I operate with the people that I care about, with the consumers that I work with and for my current and past clients, has nothing to do with all of the years of bullshit that's gone on at Nar. And that's an important distinction that we need to start making now as an agent. I'm not them. Right. So all that crap and that we are real estate like we're pirates or something, which is ridiculous, you know, like, no, no, no, my new actual campaign is I am not them. Not we are. It's like I am not them. The second piece of it, really importantly to me that people need to kind of spend more time thinking about is if there's such a misconception amongst consumers about what's happening with suits and everything, why are we not leaning into it in a form of education for people? Why are we not doing more to come out right and help people understand that the co- mingling of compensation is dumb? It's dumb from a buyer's perspective, if you are a buyer and you are going to purchase a home and you decide you want to work with the listing agent because you think you're going to get a bigger, like a better deal out of that or something, that is dumb. Here's how I know right now. Lucy, if you were being sued by somebody, would you hire the attorney representing them to defend you?

Lucy Edwards: Well, of course not. But it's a little different. Though I disagree with you. It's okay to go to directly to the, uh, to the selling agent. So if I'm looking for a property and I see the agent and I can actually Google them, I can get history on them, and I. I like what I see, and I think that I might save half a percent or whatever else. Why not?

Lance Pendleton: Yeah. Well, how do you. But how do you know that the property is priced correctly? So you're willing to spend $200,000 over what fair market value is, because you got that half a percent thrown in there?

Lucy Edwards: Of course not. But that has nothing to do with what, uh, who who is representing me in in the purchase. Because the buyer. Because the buyer's agent also can, uh, maybe maybe they're not as educated. Maybe they don't understand that the that the house is overpriced. That is something I, I in my opinion, you cannot really trust and take the word of either agent and do a little research yourself. That's why it's important to have MLS because you can compare and you can understand what each neighborhood is offering. A lot of analysis. They they also offer you stories on neighborhoods and uh. Um, and again, competitive pricing. So you can go and get that information yourself. You can get it not just through MLS but through a lot of other portals, but still and then and then try to understand. And also when you look at the property, you can also make a decision that the property is overpriced or it's right to buy right now.

Lance Pendleton: So if I heard you correctly, you're saying that you don't trust buyers agents in general?

Lucy Edwards: No, I didn't say that. Oh, you said.

Lance Pendleton: There's some crappy ones out there that aren't, but I do not. You don't trust either side of the agent. So you don't trust either of them?

Lucy Edwards: Well, I would I would question both of them. I would, you know, but I it's I didn't say that I won't trust them. Actually, buyer's agents are extremely important. I would not have bought my own.

Lance Pendleton: So then why won't you use one if you're making an offer on a property?

Lucy Edwards: No, I will use one. But if I don't have an agent and I saw the property that I really like and I didn't have an agent yet at all, I would go to the listing agent. Why would I look for a buyer's agent?

Lance Pendleton: So during the inspection portion, you're confident that the listing agent is going to be fair and up to date on all the disclosures and everything, and then help you negotiate what things need to be done from the inspection.

Lucy Edwards: Well, first of all, when you get the inspection, you should also pay. You cannot just rely on any agent. You should also rely on your common sense. If you don't have common sense, hire legal advice, but let someone check and recheck. I think it is.

Lance Pendleton: Wouldn't that be getting my own buyer's agent though, to help me check and recheck someone that has experience in that?

Lucy Edwards: I totally agree with you. A lot of sales, a lot of agents who represent sellers, they also represent buyers. So they are dual agents. Not all agents just sell it. Selling agents or buyer's agents, a lot of them do. Both sides. Maybe not on the same transaction, but on different. Transactions. They can represent buyers and sellers, so I wouldn't really separate them that much. Very few agents who are just strictly buyers agents. And usually the way I see it, like on different teams, you do have dedicated buyers agents and sellers agents. But in general, if I am a solo, I can represent both sides in different transactions.

Lance Pendleton: So interestingly enough, Lucy, this is where I think that this gets really fascinating because you talk about how lawsuits and all these things happen. So I think based on what you just explained, which I for the record, I appreciate you going back and forth with me on because I couldn't possibly disagree with you more in just about everything you said there. In a good way, right? In a healthy way. But what I want to point out is, you know, are you aware that there is a current class action lawsuit working its way up through the ranks that came out of Westchester County, New York on dual agency?

Lucy Edwards: Yes. Yeah. And it's not just in Westchester County. It's throughout the country. You have those lawsuits. However, I still believe that if you go to the listing agent, there is nothing wrong with that. I really don't understand why you have a problem with that.

Lance Pendleton: Because it's to me, again, it's the reasoning why they're going. It's the reasoning why they're going. Because they think they're going to save a few dollars here and there. You cannot be impartial. It is. It is behaviorally, psychologically impossible for a human being to be impartial when they're financially motivated by both ends of a deal. It is not. And as a selling agent, I'll tell you right now, as a selling as a seller, I do not want my agent representing me doing paperwork for the buyer. And by the way, also, if you are an agent that is doing that stuff right, you're doubling the likelihood of legal problems down the road when you actually go through that process.

Lance Pendleton: Why would. Lance Pendleton: Anybody. Lance Pendleton: Assume. Lance Pendleton: That. Lance Pendleton: Risk?

Lucy Edwards: But what if I don't have a bias agent? I am bringing you in the area, like.

Lance Pendleton: Like you can't just find what, like, like buyer's agents or some mystery thing that someone may not know. Where do I find an agent? Maybe there's one living under a tree outside somewhere. It's like you go on the internet. No no no.

Lucy Edwards: No no, not to exaggerate, but I believe that if I don't have an agent, I don't know the area the way I, the way I bought my place and I did not know anybody here in Fort Lauderdale. We happen to like a condo that we went to see with the selling agent. So I didn't have a buyer agent. If I were to buy that condo, that agent would have represented me. Also, it didn't work out, thank God. Now I understand why. However, because.

Lance Pendleton: You didn't have a buyer's agent.

Lucy Edwards: However, I really like the agent and and I like the fact that she showed me it was a beautiful condo, but it was only like 27th floor. And when I opened the window, when I opened the balcony, now it's downtown Fort Lauderdale. It's nothing but air conditioning units and you cannot even talk. All you can hear is 1000 air conditioning units. And. But she brought it up to me and she said, I want to show you something before you start looking around. Let let me take you to the balcony. So we left immediately. But I liked her and I hired her to represent me to buy my condo.

Lance Pendleton: Okay, so here's a question for you. So you said that woman represented the seller. Yes, yes. And she brought you out on the balcony to point out that there was a bunch of air conditioners and you couldn't hear anything. Yes. Right. If I'm the seller, think about what you just said. How pissed am I that that person just did that? You literally just.

Lucy Edwards: You know why she did that? Because she already went through hundreds of potential buyers who were so much interested. And then the minute they go to the balcony, they leave, right? And and I appreciated the fact that.

Lance Pendleton: She keeps taking them out there. I'm not saying she should hide it, but I'm just saying at the end of the day, you know, again, it's it's fiduciary duty. And listen, we could go back and forth. You and I know we go back and forth on this all day, but we only have a certain amount of time that we can work with. But, you know, I think that you and I would definitely agree that there needs to be transformational change within Nar.

Lucy Edwards: Yes, 100%.

Lance Pendleton: Okay. And transformational change within the multiple listing Services and how they function.

Lucy Edwards: Yes, absolutely. And they have to be combined.

Lance Pendleton: And we would also agree that if you're an agent and you're right now dealing with trying to navigate this process, would you agree, Lucy, that the best thing that you can do as an agent is to spend more time talking to consumers, not past clients, to consumers, to understand what they want, what they need, and how you can best engage with them based off of their understanding of these things, not based off of what we're being taught within the industry. Would you say that's a beneficial thing?

Lucy Edwards: It is, of course, beneficial, but it was always supposed to be like that. It should have been like that to begin with. But yeah, but unfortunate.

Lance Pendleton: Yeah, but it's not.

Lucy Edwards: It's unfortunate that it's not.

Lance Pendleton: Well that's that's a wrap for us. I you know, this is a fantastic conversation. This is why I love doing this with you. Because we could sit here and go back and forth on this all day long. But, you know, it is always fascinating as we move further and further into the depths of the real estate world here at consumed. Exactly. Understanding all the different nuances and opinions that come up in the world of real estate. Thank you so much for joining us. And I tell you, I can't wait to hear what's next. Yeah.

Lucy Edwards: Can't wait to to hear what's next. It's going to be a really awesome topic right now.

Lance Pendleton: Thank you so much for joining us on another amazing episode of consumed. If you click on the link below, we've got the top three pieces of technology that are transforming the landscape of real estate today.